caponing sponsored by macneil/lehrer productions >> woodruff: the national rifle association called for arming and training security officers in every u.s. school. good evening. i'm judy woodruff. >> warner: and i'm margaret warner. on the newshour tonight, we have back-to-back interviews with the author of the n.r.a. proposal and a gun control advocate. >> woodruff: then, as north korea promises to restart its plutonium reactor, we examine the communist nation's nuclear capabilities. >> warner: we talk to former maine senator olympia snowe about the future of the

republican party and the partisan gridlock that prompted her to retire from congress. >> woodruff: we update the atlanta school cheating scandal, as indicted educators begin turning themselves in at the county jail. >> warner: and poet gerald stern reflects on his working class upbringing and 70 years of writing verse in a conversation with jeffrey brown. >> woodruff: that's all ahead on tonight's newshour. >> major funding for the pbs newshour has been provided by: moving our economy for 160 years. bnsf, the engine that connects us.

>> and by bp. >> and by the bill and melinda gates foundation. dedicated to the idea that all people deserve the chance to live a healthy, productive life. >> and with the ongoing support of these institutions and foundations. and... >> this program was made possible by the corporation for public broadcasting. and by contributions to your pbs station from viewers like you. thank you. >> woodruff: with congress poised to take up gun control legislation in the coming days, the national rifle association battled back today as it tried to shift attention to a different proposal. it calls for arming trained personnel in every public u.s. school.

the n.r.a. turned a former republican congressman asa hutchinson to chair what it calls the national school shield task force. he laid out the center piece of its 225-page study in washington. >> if you are interested in making our scols fer and to save children's lives, look at these recommendations seriously, and this... the presence of an armed security in schools is a layer that is just as important as the mental health component. >> woodruff: aimed at reducing vietent crimes on school grounds it is the latest push in the gun-control debate. it includes proposals for revised state laws to allow trained personnel to carry firearms on school grounds, training for designated school personnel to handle active shooting incidents, and mental health pilot programs to reduce

bullying and identify potential threats. this review comes as congress continues to pursue gun-control legislation. the republican-led house has not yet taken up bills in the almost two months since president obama made this issue a priority at his state of the union address. but today maryland democrat elijah cummings highlighted one area where he said congress should act. >> most americans already think gun trafficking is a federal crime. i have news for you. it's not. they have no idea that there is no federal law targeting firearm traffickers who commonly use straw purchasers to buy guns for convicted felons and other dangerous criminals who cannot legally buy guns on their own. >> woodruff: scrutiny of such purchases has renewed calls for universal background checks. recent polling shows nearly 9 in 10 americans support near

universal background checks on all gun purchases. calls for expansion of background checks and new penalties for gun trafficking has stymied action in the sena senate. new legislation is expected on the floor when senators return from recess next week. it won't include bans on assault weapons and on high capacity ammunition magazines. and five republican senators, including florida's marco rubio had vowed to filibuster any new gun restriction. still, some state legislatures have already taken action on their own. after weeks of negotiation, connecticut legislators agreed on a package yesterday. among the most far-reaching in the country. including universal background checks for all gun sales and bans on new high-capacity ammunition magazines. yesterday leaders from both parties hailed the agreement. >> it's also critical that we

send a message to washington and to the rest of this country that this is the way to get this job done. >> at the end of the day, i think it's a package that a majority of people in connecticut will be proud when we vote on wednesday. >> woodruff: the bill is expected to pass both houses of the state general assembly tomorrow. the president returns to colorado tomorrow to press his gun-control proposals. we get two vie now on the n.r.a.'s plan and where it fits into the bigger debate right now. first, asa hutchinson, whom we heard earlier and was the lead author of today's proposal on school safety. he's not an n.r.a. employee, but is consulting with the group on this issue. i spoke with him earlier. former congressman, asa hutchinson, welcome to the newshour. >> thank you, judy. good to be with you. >> woodruff: we heard what you said today at the news conference. why are more guns the answer to preventing violence in schools? >> well, whenever there's a

tragic incident in a school, the first person who is called and the shooting stops whenever a police officer or an armed guard arrives. that's when the shooting and t death stops. so the quicker the response, the more lives you save and the best response can be when there's a school resource officer in the school or some other armed personnel. that's the reason that that's one of the solutions. there's many more parts to school safety, but that is an important part of it. >> woodruff: but if someone is determined to come in to a school and harm people, why wouldn't they be able to overpower one or two individuals who are trained? >> well, if someone tried to come in to school, first of all hopefully the access controls that we recommend, the perimeter security, the surveillance cameras, all of these will come into play to delay that activity or to prevent it. but, sure, any good bad guy can

go in and try to break the systems down and get through. and then it's a response capability. and the best response is somebody who is close and quick. you're either going to call the police to come 15 minutes later or you're going to have someone there on site. and this is not an unusual proposal. we've had armed guards in the schools since bill clinton recommended it while he was president. we just haven't had sufficient. >> woodruff: let me read you a comment from the person, the woman who founded and led the and still leads the children's defense fund. she said, quote, there's no evidence that armed guards or police officers in schools make children safer. she said columbine high school had an armed guard. virginia tech had a full campus police force. >> well that's why it's not just one solution. there's many solutions here. but, for example, the training has totally changed since columbine. so we see what happened there. improvements have been made.

but, for example, who talks about the high school incident in 1997 whenever an assistant principal after having two students shot goes out in his truck to retrieve his .45 semiautomatic, goes back in and disarms the assailant. o that indicates that there is evidence that you can stop an assailant whenever you have armed protection. >> woodruff: you mention that example earlier today. congressman hutchinson, i also want to quote what the brady campaign founded in the name of jim brady, of course, who was terribly wounded the day president reagan was shot back in 1981. the brady campaign said, this is an effort that is missing the point because what the american people want, they are saying, is a comprehensive, broad-based approach to reduce gun violence. in other words, more than just something that is focued on adding armed guards in schools. >> i would agree with part of

it. what we need is a comprehensive approach to school safety. and you can pass all the laws you want in washington in terms of restricting guns. bad guys are still going to have access to guns. they're still going to be a danger to the school. >> woodruff: you're saying there's no place for any additional restrictions on guns in this country? >> i don't think it's going to solve the problem of loss of life in schools. so if you want to address the problem of safety in schools, you have to have security measures in place. that's what schools all across this country are doing as we speak. >> woodruff: let me also ask you about... as you know, there's a measure that will be before the congress in the weeks to come. universal background checks or a version of background checks. the polls are all showing now that the vast majority of americans, 90% of americans, think that that's an appropriate way to go, to find out who is buying a gun, make sure they don't have some problem in their history before they're allowed to buy a gun. what's wrong with that? >> well, i agree that criminals should not have guns, convicted

felons and people who been ajude icted with mental problems should not have access to them. we. >> woodruff: ajude icted. so someone who is being treated for a psychological problem wouldn't already be in the system, would they? >> i think the mental health professionals have some concerns about who is put into a database so you usually articulate it as to those who have been ajude icted. obviously there's a threat assessment that has to be done otherwise but that's a mental health issue as who is put in the system. but the problem is, 23 states are not putting that information into the system right now, so fix the system first. fix the system first. that's the best way to prevent those who are not supposed to be getting weapons, firearms from getting them. >> woodruff: as a former member of congress and as someone who was an official at the department of homeland security,

where do you see this issue going? do you believe... i mean, there's a lot more attention being paid to it. it's certainly in the media. the american public is saying they want something done. how... where do you see it headed? >> well, mayor bloomberg is spending tens of millions of dollars to advocate for gun control legislation. i would rather that money be spent in school safety programs. you can make a huge difference in safety across our country. >> woodruff: and violence outside of schools? >> where we're going in my judgment is congress will debate, as they always debate, and what you can agree upon is some real measures that we've recommended for funding, for better coordination, for some changes in laws to provide for the school safety equation. that's where i think we can reach agreement now. the rest will be an ongoing debate. >> woodruff: former congressman asa hutchinson, thank you very much for talking with us. >> thank you, judy. >> woodruff: and for a different view.

mark glaze is the executive director of mayors against illegal guns, a group of 900 mayors, including new york's michael bloomberg, advocating for changes to federal and state laws. mark glaze, welcome to the newshour. what do you make of this proposal by the group? it was under the auspices of the n.r.a. it was led by former congressman hutch insin. it's a package of proposings that includes one that would train armed guards and ideally have them in every school. >> it's a solution that nobody wants who are knowledgeable on the subject. police think it's a bad idea. teachers came out against it. they think the answer is better background checks and tougher gun laws to keep guns away from people who don't have them so they don't wind up in the schools. killing 20 kids my son's age. it's altogether typical. it's legitimately their view that an armed society is a safe society and that the only answer to a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun but irony of this is that we have so many guns in our society, around 300

million because of the n.r.a. has systematically whittled away at modest restrictions so they can now make the argument there's so many guns out of there you're never going to get them out of the hands of criminals. you'd better arm everybody. >> woodruff: you heard what he was saying. among other things he's saying it would serve as a deterrent. if someone has the intention of going into a school, harming children, harming anyone, knowing someone is tere with a gun is much more likely to keep somebody from doing that. at least it would cause them to think twice. >> it's possible but if you look at the mass shootings we've had recently, they're all young men who are deeply troubled. you have to ask yourself whether, you know, the columbine shooters who actually went into a school that they attended and knew there were armed guards there, virginia tech, a big security on the campus there. if people are as troubled as they have to be to do the things that, you know, men have done in recent years, i don't know that an armed guard is going to stop them. >> woodruff: what about his argument that this is an important part of a package that

would make schools safer. they are talking about other steps as well. >> well, i think that having armed guards in schools is something that school districts should have the choice to make. some of them do. i know some of our mayors in michigan have had off-duty police officers in the classroom for a long time. there's a general sense that there's a greater sense of comfort having police there than paid security guards but i have to point out one last irony. that he assured people during the course of this event that these security guards would be vetted and safe because they would be given background checks presumably to make sure they are not felons or domestic violence perpetrators or seriously mentally ill and can therefore carry a gun. >> woodruff: let me ask you about the overall effort to pass gun control legislation. what has happened to the momentum? after the sandy hook shooting back in december, there was a lot of... it felt like there was momomentum to do something about guns. today as congress takes up legislation we know that as we mentioned no assault weapons ban

is include, a ban or restrictions on high-capacity magazines are no longer included. what happened to that momentum? >> well, i think people who thought this would be quicker, easy, have not followed this issue and have not really followed the congress recently. i mean congress recently took more than 500 days to reauthorize the violence against women act which is what it sounds like. it's about helping women against whom violence has been perpetrated. i never thought this would be done immediately or very easily. i think what has happened is a lot of senators and house members are still kind of living in a by-gone era when the era was the only game in town. many of the senators who have not committed themselves or have said they will not have accepted a lot of n.r.a. money and have known for a generation that there was not a lot of political support or much grass roots activism on our side of the ledger. that's one of the things that our mayors and the 1.5 million grass roots supporters, many of whom came to us after the newtown shooting are trying to change. 's going to take some time. i do think we'll pass a very good background check bill.

>> woodruff: is that now the focus of your efforts and other gun-control groups to mainly get background checks? is that what it's come down to? >> we think it's really important that assault weapons and also high-capacity magazines which are after all what make mass shootings mass. one person can fire for as long as they can as long as they have bullets and they'll have a lot of bullets. but we have always said that the biggest solution, if you had to choose just one is making sure everybody gets a background check because, you know, well over 90% of the firearms as ifalities in this country are related to handguns and not to assault weapons. the best way to address that without getting in the way of what you or i can do with a gun dealer is to make sure you can pass a background check. >> woodruff: we heard the comment from asa hutchinson but you hear it from some democrats from, shall we say, gun rights parts of the country who say having the mayor of new york city as the face of the movement, part of this movement anyway,... may not be helpful. there are folks who care about

gun rights and they would rather see somebody who understands that culture leading the charge on this. >> you know, mayor bloomberg may not sell in some of those places in the same way wayne lapierre doesn't sell in other parts of the country. you can't make the mistake of tying the principle and the debate to some of the people who are involved in it. mayor bloom berke is the cochair of a coalition that has almost 1,000 mayors in it today, more than 100 of them are republicans. they're very different people who are all unified by one thing, that you can actually support the second amendment and have no intention of taking people's guns away but still do much more to keep guns out of the wrong hands. i think people ought to focus on kind of the coalition and the ideas rather than trying to demonize the person. >> woodruff: finally, and just quickly, we mentioned states like connecticut passing tougher gun control. but there are other states are pushing back and loosening restrictions on guns. could you end up losing the battle in the states? you know, at the same time you're trying to focus on washington.

>> i don't think so. in fact there's been a shift. the n.r.a. has done most of the bad work it's done under the radar and without us in washington noticing. for the past 10 or 15 years. i mean state by state by state they have methodically passed outrageous laws like the sandra brown law that resulted in the shooting of trayvon martin and no arrest for more than a month for the perpetrator. he may not end up being guilty. they've done this across a range of issues. the fact you're seeing push back and seeing good laws passed including in my home state of colorado which has a very strong libertarian streak and a high tradition of gun ownership, if you can do it there, you can probably do it anywhere. >> woodruff: mark glaze with mayors against illegal guns, thank you for being with us. >> warner: follow our ongoing coverage of the guns debate on our home page. and still to come on the newshour, north korea's nuclear ambitions; one senator's mission

to resolve gridlock; and atlanta teachers surrender to authorities. but first, the other news of the day. here's hari sreenivasan. >> sreenivasan: the u.n. general assembly adopted the first-ever treaty on global arms trade today. it was overwhelmingly approved, 154-3, with iran, north korea, and syria voting against it. 23 countries abstained, including china and russia. it will require nations that ratify the pact to regulate the transfer of conventional arms, from light weapons to combat aircraft. they'll also have to ensure those weapons won't be used to commit acts of terror or organized crime. supporters hope that will make the estimated $6billion arms trade more transparent. unemployment in the eurozone hit a record 12% for the month of february. it's the first time the rate has been that high since the euro currency was created in 1999. 12% unemployment translates to more than 19 million people out of work across the 17-nation eurozone. the figures also came out before the recent economic crisis in cyprus. president obama asked congress to invest $100 million next year to help unlock the mysteries of

the human brain. the so-called "brain initiative" project would map brain functions with the hopes of eventually finding cures for disorders like alzheimer's and epilepsy. the president unveiled the plan before a group of scientists at the white house. >> think about what we could do once we do crack this code. imagine if no family had to feel helpless watching a loved one disappear behind the mask of parkinson's or struggle in the grip of epilepsy. imagine if we could reverse traumatic brain injury or p.t.s.d. for our veterans who are coming home. >> sreenivasan: the white house is slated to release president obama's budget next week. the president has maintained that investment in education and research are critical, even in the face of spending cuts. the arkansas attorney general is opening an investigation into an exxon mobil crude oil pipeline that ruptured last week. exxon has been asked to keep all documents and information related to the spill and cleanup efforts. the spill, about 20 miles

northeast of little rock, forced 22 residents to evacuate their homes as crude oil bubbled up onto their properties from the pipeline. exxon has agreed to cooperate with any investigation, and the pipeline remains shut. march was the best month for u.s. auto sales in at least six years. ford and general motors each reported their sales rose about 6%, and chrysler posted 5% gains. nissan had its best showing in company history, with sales up 1%. low interest rates and new models helped drive the sales, but another factor was the need to replace older cars. the average age of a vehicle on u.s. roads is more than 11 years. those auto sales reports drove the dow jones industrial average to another record high on wall street today. it gained 89 points to clo at 14,662. the nasdaq rose more than 15 points to close above 3,254. subaru announced a recall of 200,000 of its all-wheel-drive vehicles to fix a brake problem. it affects the legacy and outback models from the years

2005 to 2009. salt used on icy roads in the winter could cause their brake lines to rust and leak fluid. that could result in longer vehicle stopping distances and increase the risk of a crash. so far no accidents have been reported. those are some of the day's major stories. now, back to margaret. >> warner: we turn again to the korean peninsula, where there was yet another escalation in rhetoric today, as north korea declared it was reactivating its nuclear facilities. the announcement came on north korean state television. >> the general department atomic energy decided to adjust and alter the use of existing nuclear facilities. this includes readjusting and restarting all nuclear facilities in pyongyang this work will be put into practice without delay. >> warner: at issue: a plutonium reactor and a uranium enrichment plant north of the capital pyongyang. the reactor was shuttered in

2007 amid disarmament talks. a year later the north destroyed the facility's cooling tower. but in 2009, north korea pulled out of the talks, and it revealed its uranium enrichment program in 2010. today's announcement follows leader kim jong-un's weekend pledge to build up the nation's nuclear capability. >> it is on the basis of a strong nuclear strengt that peace and prosperity can exist and so can the happiness of people's lives. >> warner: last december the north successfully launched a long-range rocket. in february, the country carried out its third nuclear test. leave leading to another round of united nations' sanctions. today u.n. secretary general ban-ki moon warned nuclear threats are not a game. >> things must begin to come down. as this is a situation made worse by the lack of communication. it could lead down a path that nobody should want to follow.

>> warner: in seoul south korea residents expressed unease. >> north korea threatens us every day. i am very anxious. >> warner: the pentagon said today a second u.s. guided missile destroyerer has been deployed to the western pacific on a missile defense mission. this afternoon in washington secretary of state john kerry met with south korea's foreign minister. >> let me be perfectly clear here today. the united states will defend and protect ourselves and our treaty ally, the republic of korea. >> warner: the current condition of the north korean facilities isn't known, nor how long it will take to restart them. for more we turn to veteran c.i.a. officer joseph vi trani who served as the officer of the director of national intelligence. he now heads the intelligence and national security alliance. welcome back. >> thank you. how alarming a development is this north korea relaunching these nuclear facilities?

>> i think it's significant, very significant. certainly their admission in which they have a highly enriched uranium program which we knew all along but they never admitted it, that's significant. reconstituting a plutonium facility will take a few years but that's significant. >> warner: how long will it take? let's take the plutonium reactor which i gather used to supply at least most of the nuclear fuel for whatever they had. how long will it take to get that up and running again? >> the sense is it's in disrepair. it's been 2007 when they took it down and the cooling tower. so the sense would be at least a fewears, two to two-and-a-half, three years to get it up and running. >> warner: we already know that they have enough fissile material for 6-8 bombs, 4-8 bombs and in fact they've had their own nuclear test. so what is the big deal about restarting this plant? >> it's producing more fissile material, more plutonium for

more nuclear we owns. that's what kim jong-un said the other day enhancing their nuclear weapons program. they're talking about building more nuclear weapons using plutonium with the facility and now admitting to using highly enriched uranium. >> warner: what's the significance of the highly enriched uranium. why do they need it? how significant is it? >> this is something they've denied all along for many years. they maintained they never had a highly enriched uranium program. in 2000 they said they have a you're rain numb enrichment program. the key here is a highly enriched uranium program speaks to nuclear weapon. there's only one purpose for that: that's to build nuclear weapons. >> warner: what's the advantage to them of having two paths? >> more nuclear weapons. warner: why pursue two different technologies? >> this is something that could be denied. they could highly enriched uranium is something that could

be done very clandestinely. there are very little if any signatures so they could have significant capabilities unbeknownst to the international community. while a plutonium facility is very visible. >> warner: just because of its size? >> because of its size and because of the technology. youan bury highly enriched uranium program and there are literally no signatures coming out of it. you can be building capabilities which no one is aware of. >> warner: especially because they have no weapons inspectors there, no i.a.e.a. >> that's exactly. when the i.a.e.a. was there they were restricted to just looking at the plutonium facility. >> warner: so the question that concerns, of course, americans among others is how close are they to being able to build, construct a compact enough nuclear war head that would fit atop a missile that could be delivered to the united states? >> there's a very good points. the sense is i've been away for it for a number of months but the sense is from the information available that they

are not there. obviously at this moment now. but with the third nuclear test they had in february, they're moving towards that capability. the assessment is they are not there to miniaturizing such that they could marry it up to a missile delivery system. they're not there yet. they would need more time for that. >> warner: do they have the technical capability? >> i think the assessment is they do have the technical capability. >> warner: what about targeting their neighbor much closer to home, south korea? are they at the point that they have a deliverable nuclear device that could be, say, shut off by a rocket launcher, surface to surface or dropped from a plane? >> that's an excellent point. excellent point. when you're a neighbor and you have the proximity and so forth, a nuclear weapon can be delivered as you just described. they could drop it out of an airplane if it need be. it doesn't have to be married up to a missile delivery system so if you're in the neighborhood, the threat is very significant and it's much more imminent.

>> warner: but are they... what do they still need to do to be able to say that... >> you need to weaponnize it in the sense that they have the capability of weaponnizing the fissile material. the next issue would be miniaturizing it so it could fit on a delivery system, and that's sense of them working towards that capability. >> warner: as an expert in this field, can you drive any... derive any conclusion from intentions from announce manies like this and decisions to restart operations like this. >> this gnificant escalation. they are definitely getting everyone's attention. and by claiming to have a highly enriched uranium program now admitting to the program, that is very significant. it's obvious that he wanted to get a message across. he wanted to get a very stark message across which he has done. >> warner: thank you so much. thank you.

the past few years have seen more good luck in washington and politics nationally than at any other time in memory. from the fights over health care reform and the debt limit to the so-called fiscal cliff, the two parties have seemed like separate armed camps. is it possible for lawmakers to bridge the partisan divide? we put that question to former republican senator olympia snow of maine. she's now a senior fellow at the bipartisan policy center and cochair of the group's commission on political reform. charged with making the system work better. senator swe, thank you for joining us. as i added it up you were in politics for what? three or four decades. why would you take on this task after you've retired? >> well, you know, it's interesting. i have often said, you know, at my age you face enough drastic change. you're not seeking more but i decided if i was going to

continue in the political arena perhaps i should contribute in a different way, given the polarization that's occurred. and most exponentially over the last few years. it has truly gotten worse. you can see the slow, steady erosion of what was happening and evolving. very clearly gotten worse to the point that we're no longer solving problems and most especially the big problems facing this country. i thought i could add my voice on the outside to encourage people to demand bipartisanship, to understand the value of bipartisanship and consensus building in the political arena. what is the purpose of public service? to solve problems for the people you represent. certainly in the united states senate speaking about your country as well. >> woodruff: what would you consider fixing the problem or at least making some improvement in the problem? what would be a better way of operating? >> just looking at the last two years, i mean, i think it's a template. it's been happening even before that obviously. but just over the last two years when we had, you know, some very

serious problems from the debt ceiling, for example. you know, we didn't grapple with that issue at the very beginning in january, 2011. we waited until the 11th hour in august of 2011 to the final hour on the deadline. ultimately the country experienced the first downgrade in its history of its credit rating. that's going to cost according to the bipartisan policy center which i'm a senior fellow $20 billion over the next ten years. yet we knew the implications and ramifications of deavering, delaying, obfuscating that kind of action. then you look at no budget and i know the senate has finally passed a budget. obviously it has to be reconciled for the first time in four years we didn't address any of the major questions over the last two years. we just neglected, you know, the interest of the country. >> woodruff: what can be done about it? >> i think the american people have to demand change. what i've been saying in my speeches all over the country is that it's time for all of us to

provide rewards for those who are willing to engage in bipartisanship and working across the political aisle and providing a political party for those who don't. if you see the emergence of groups on both sides from the tea party to occupy wall street. how did they get mobilized in through social media and through the internet. and the same can be true for those who want to see their country work and want their political system to work. i mean they're feaul about the future simply because they see the debilitation, the political process in washington. it really has frustrated and angered people. it's made them fearful about the future. >> woodruff: with all due respect, senator. i hear many analysts say, yes, the problem is on both sides but more of the problem is with your party, with the republicans. in fact a respected political scientist norman ornstein, tom mann wrote a back last year. the thrust of it was that it's the republicans who have been the most ideologically extreme, the least willing to compromise, the most dismissive of the other party. how do you see that?

>> well, you know, i don't disagree with them that certainly republicans, you know, have also induced where we are today in terms of the partisanship and more filibusters. i would agree with that. i didn't support all the filibusters. i think there were instances that there were legitimately when the majority doesn't allow the minority to offer amendments so the whole process is broken down in the united states senate. more than anything else is what institutionally has occurred in the senate. yes, it started certainly with the republicans instigating more filibusters and, you know, it's tit for tat over time. it depends on which position each side is in. they use each other's tactics. so the point where the process wasn't working, nothing was happening in the committees. to build up on legislation, to work on legislation and no amendments. so the whole process had shattered. it falls to both sides. there's no question that the

republicans have that responsibility as well as democrats to make the system work. >> woodruff: what is it? i mean, if you were again a member -- and you were a member of congress for we said several decades -- you're hearing many in your own party say to you, back in your district or back in your state don't compromise. stand on principle. then you see polls perhaps that show most americans want washington to work. and you think it should work. but then there's really no pressure on you to work with the other side because you're not rewarded for that. you may not get re-elected if you work for the other side. how do you see that? >> right. i think there has to be changes in that sense. i think even at a local levels in terms of, you know, opening up primaries and so on. so that, you know, elected officials and redistricting for that matter for the house of representatives have more independent commissions but i think absolutely the fact is we had a process that was working, you know, and you had amendments and people on both sides this the opportunity to weigh in, the rank and file.

and then you can say, listen, i tried to modify this legislation, make changes, make it better. this is what i was able to accomplish. and let the process work. and then you can explain to your constituents, you know, what you're able to support and the reasons why. but now when you say it's all or nothing, it becomes the parliamentary system that it has been at least over the last two years where both sides are working in unity and political blocks rather than letting... especially in the senate. i say for the leadership too and for the president. frankly, and sometimes it's in the interest of the leaders to centralize their decision-making in their hands and concentrate it there rather than allowing the rank and file to build support for various initiatives. >> woodruff: let me ask you another question about your own party, the republicans, the leadership of the party recently conducted what they called an autopsy. they said a lot of it was just communicating with the voters. others are looking at it and saying it's some of the beliefs

in the republican party that are out of the mainstream. right now on gun control which is an issue before the country. your party is the party that's basically saying we don't need any more restrictions on guns. how do you see your party? >> well, i think that there's no question the republican party has had a serious problem. i remember writing an op-ed piece before the national con vedges. in fact on what they needed to do. but even then in many ways almost too late for the perceptions that had already been embedded about the republican party which many of them are realistic. i mean too rigid. too inflexible. too intolerant. too, you know, exclusive. certainly as a republican at the republican member of the senate and having been a republican almost all my life i'm seeing what's changes in the republican party. it wasn't the party that i joined obviously. or served during mytime in office. but that doesn't mean to say it can't change. they're recognizing that. it's going to be more

communications absolutely. it will be the policies. they've got to understand what the average person needs in america. they've got to be more tolerant. and not... and be more inclusive in reaching out to people. obviously that's why they've lost women and hispanics. we know the list. not surprised by it. just because they know they've been intolerant of diversities within the party. how is it that they can be tolerant of views outside the party? that's what's got to change. people understand what's happened within the republican party. they're going to have to change. >> woodruff: does that include on gun control? >> that's one of the issues. obviously, i mean, i think basically that's more or less... more regional and geographic than it is partisan. i know that from my own state. for example. but i think they have to look at those issues as well and see if it takes reasonable practical sense in this day and age and what occurred in the horrific event in connecticut. at sandy hook. >> woodruff: formersenator

olympia snowe, we thank you. >> thank you. >> warner: next, allegations of widespread cheating by principals and teachers in atlanta's public schools. the charges have tarnished the school system and triggered criminal indictments. today marked an important deadline in the case. early this morning, tamika goodson turned herself in to authorities at fulton county jail, the first of nearly three dozen former atlanta educators required to surrender after being indicted in a systemwide cheating scandal. fulton county district attorney paul howard announced the charges friday. >> the four principal crimes that are charged in the indictment are the statements and writings, false swearings, and influencing witnesses. >> warner: prosecutors say as early as 2005 under pressure

from the top, principals and teachers engaged in coordinated doctoring of students' standardized test scores. the charges range from giving students the correct answers to changing wrong answers to right ones. at the center of the scandal is former superintendent beverly hall. during her 12 years as its head, the atlanta public school system gained attention for its meteoric progress so much so that in 2009 hall was named national superintendent of the year. she retired in 2011 just before a state investigation found evidence of cheating involving 178 educators including 38 principals. the ex-school's chief now faces racketeering and other conspiracy charges including theft. district attorney howard. >> without her, this conspiracy could not have taken place particularly in the degree that it took place because, as we know, this took place in 58 of

the atlanta public schools. it would not have taken place if her actions had not made that possible. >> warner: prosecutors say hall received bonuses tied to the falsely inflated test scores. hall has denied any involvement in the cheating scandal. and yesterday some of the others accused also denied any wrongdoing to local press. >> i am actually considered a criminal for doing the best i can for children all my life. >> i can tell you dr. hall has never told me to cheat nor have i told anyone else to cheat. >> warner: trial dates have not been set. hall faces up to 45 years if convicted on all counts. as of 5:00 p.m. today just 11 of the defendants had turned themselves in. and defense lawyers complained about some bonds that were set at one million dollars or higher.

we look more closely at the cheating scandal with mike winerip, who's covering it for the "new york times." mike, welcome to the program. the scope of this alleged operation is huge. how did it actually work? what were the methedded ons teachers used allegedly to change or boost test scores? >> well, the most basic changes, margaret were done by erase you're where wrong answers were turned right. the investigation showed that something like some of the schools, the odds of it happening randomly were a trillion to one. principals often directed the teachers. the teachers... there was one teacher, a case where he went into a locked testing room. he had a razor blade. he cut the cellophane on the test and took the test out. he copied it. he returned it. he used a cigarette lighter to reseal the cellophane. >> warner: and what was superintendent beverly hall's role again according to the prosecutors? in other words, is she accused of being the master mind and ordering or directing this or

was it something less overt than that? >> at this point it appears to be something less overt. there's no evidence, as her attorneys pointed out, that she actually sat in her office and said i want cheating at the parks middle school. but there is evidence that people came to her directly, the atlanta journal constitution, the education department, her own investigators said there's substantial cheating at these schools. she did nothing substantial about it. >> warner: you also wrote, i think, that under her system if principals didn't consistently improve the scores at their school, they could be fired and often were. >> yes, indeed. they were given three years to make the targets. if they didn't, she told them they would be gone. and in the course of her decade or so there, something like 90% of the principals were replaced. >> warner: you had a very interesting story. you mentioned the elementary

school. about how the special prosecutors appointed by the governor and an investigator cracked this case. it involved an elementary teacher at the hills. >> her name is jackie parks. jackie is a third grade teacher. and when richard hyde, the lead investigator for the special prosecutors turned up there for a couple of weeks the teachers lied to him about whether they were involved. jackie parks indeed blocked his entry into their third grade class. he kept coming back. ms. parks, a very religious woman, and it weighed on her conscience. she finally approached him and told him what happened and what happened was a group of seven teachers, including herself, known as the chosen, sat in a room, a locked room with no windows and erased wrong answers and made them right. and because of her religion, her christianity, she couldn't bear it anymore. and after she confessed to mr. hyde, he wired her an

electronic wire and she recorded other teachers at the school. >> warner: what about the real victims here, the children who were advanced to the next grade and the next grade despite not being ready? how much damage was done? have they tried to quantify that? and what's being done to rectify things for them? or to help them catch up? >> well, there's no... it's not known exactly how many children were negatively affected by this. when the new superintendent came in, errol davis, one of the first things he did was set up special remedial courses for the kids who had been at schools where there was cheating, something like 8,000 students were included. there was testimony at one of the schools from a teacher that she had students at a middle school who came in and was supposedly proficient in readi reading. when she actually tested them, they were reading on the first grade level. because they had been passed as proficient when they had

actually flunked the test in previous years. >> warner: finally, when you look at the national picture, i mean there are accusations of teacher or principal cheating like this in other parts of the country. do you know if the scope of the atlanta case, is this an aberration? is atlanta really an out lier or is it possible there are other widespread operations like this? >> no, i don't believe it is an outrider and i believe there are other operations like this. the problem is only atlanta has invested the resources to find out. most of the school systems don't want to know. washington d.c., the state of ohio what's going on now on the el paso texas. and in georgia, the former governor, sonny purdue appointed two lead prosecutors in the state, a former attorney general, a former district attorney, the best investigator in the state gave them an open

budget and said find out what you can find out. and they eventually hired 50 investigators and were given a year's time. they came up with the evidence. i believe that would be found at many many other school districts if there was a political will to get to the bottom of these things. >> warner: mike winerip of the "new york times," thank you very much. >> thank you for having me, margaret. >> woodruff: finally tonight, we talk with one of the country's most acclaimed poets, gerald stern, as he looks back at more than 70 years of writing verse. jeffrey brown has our conversation, part of our occasional series on poets and poetry. >> brown: at 87 gerald stern has been writing poetry a long time and has been one of the nation's most honored poets. now he's received a new honor for a coection of some of his earliest works. the prestigious bobbit national prize for poetry from the

library of congress is given for the most distinguished book of verse published in the last two years. stern won for his early collected poems. his newest book is called "in beauty bright." welcome to you. >> thank you. brown: what happened when you look... i want to talk about this early collection. what happened when you look back at the early poems? what did you see? >> well, you know, i paid a lot of attention to it in the last couple of days. because i felt there that it was my duty in terms of this prize to read from that book rather than read some poems. and what struck me was two things. the overwhelming similarity of what i'm doing now and the overwhelming difference. >> brown: (laughing) on the one hand, on the other hand. >> in a certain year, 64/66 something developed. a voice that i've been happy with ever since. i've never been left alone. i've never had a time when i

didn't have five or six poems. from that day to this where i'm ready to work. >> brown: in that sense you feel sort of the same poet. >> albeit, you know, you write differently when you're 70 than when you're 0 or when you're 80 than when you're 50. >> brown: what does that mean? how do you write differently? >> you're closer to death. you're farther from birth. your children, if you have them, are older. you have some money. >> brown: you grew up in pittsburgh. >> yep. brown: you describe walking the streets. you came from a working class background. >> that's what i did. i walked all the time across the bridges. >> brown: and... through the tunnels. brown: and the background was not one of literature and poetry. >> we didn't have one book in my house. not one book. we used to get pittsburgh sun telegraph which was a hearst paper. we subscribed to "look" magazine. that was the ex-extent of reading material there plus a bible in hebrew, you know. >> brown: when it came to...

there you were teaching american literature and you had to teach yourself in some ways? >> i was a prisoner of the library. i just spent hours sitting on the... in the stacks on a lighted floor which gave up some heat in the main branch of the carnegie library in pittsburgh just reading, reading, and reading. after i graduated from college and i did with highest honors i was really a bright student, i wasn't a major in english. i majored in political science. i was going to be a lawyer. my dad, my poor dad sai well, what are you going to do? i was offered all kinds of scholarships. i said i'm going to take off a year and read. that became ten years. i lived in paris, new york and all that stuff. >> brown: then a life of reading and a life of writing. >> yeah. brown: just bring us up in our last minute here like bring us up to date. i mean, where are you now as a

writer, as a poet? >> in 2012 i had two books published. this book called "in beauty bright" which is a book of poetry and a book of prose called "stealing history" which is published by trinity university press. it's about 300-some pages. 85 short sections. they're not... well, they're essay-like and almost like prose poems some of them. since i've published this book, i counted the other day, i have 63 new poems. >> brown: you're certainly not slowing down. >> i'm speeding up. (laughing). >> brown: in a sense of urgency? or just happening? >> just jo brown: just joy. joy and sorrow, of course. they go together. don't they? >> brown: i guess so. and it's just what i do. i have another poem again that's a recent poem.

i don't have it with me. i don't think it's in here. it's called "the mule." i think of myself as a mule with blinders or blinded. some of them they actually... they went in a circle pushing against a stone grinding corn, grinding wheat. only i make poems so i'm a mule. >> brown: (laughing). that was the metaphor i used in that poem. >> brown: all right. well, the honored book is for the early collected poems, 1965-1992. the new book is "in beauty bright." mr. stern, nice to talk to you. >> it's a pleasure to talk to you, it really is. >> woodruff: what an inspiration. and go to art beat to listen to stern read his poem, "the one thing in life." >> warner: again, the major developments of the day. the national rifle association called for arming and training security officers in every u.s. school. north korea vowed to restart its plutonium reactor. and the u.n. general assembly adopted the first-ever treaty on global arms trade.

>> warner: online, we follow up on our story about the benefits backlog at the veterans administration. hari sreenivasan has more. >> sreenivasan: nearly one million veterans are waiting for their benefit claims to be processed. in a v.a. office in north carolina, the claims were stacked so high they were deemed a safety hazard. see what the mass of paperwork looked like before it was cleaned up in photos on our home page. a colorado program, shakes pierce classics to stem bullying. plus, can search engine results influence voting behavior? one psychologist says it can. that conversation is on our politics page. all that and more is on our web site, newshour.pbs.org. margaret? >> warner: and that's the newshour for tonight. on wednesday, we'll look at a kentucky school district that's spending less time testing students and more time teaching creativity and communication. i'm margaret warner. >> woodruff: and i'm judy woodruff. we'll see you online, and again here tomorrow evening. thank you, and good night.

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